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10EE Problem

Discussion in 'MONARCH KNOWLEDGE BASE ++' started by MattM, Jul 3, 2017.

  1. MattM

    MattM United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I have a 1975 10EE that blew the 22060 tube. I ordered and received a new tube from Monarch ($500.00+). Installed it today. Did not solve the problem lathe is not running. I called Monarch and they won't be back until Wednesday.

    I have a good friend who said to s-can the 70 year old technology and install a 3phase motor with VFD. This guy is no amateur. He has installed VFDs on two of my mills and knows electronics.

    I'm thinking that's the way to go. What say ye?

    If I go that way:

    1. What horsepower motor?

    2. Will I get the same performance from my 10EE?

    3. Any salvage value from the parts removed; DC motor, Thyratron tubes, etc.?

    I love my 10EE and want it to be well again. Any comments greatly appreciated.
     
  2. Doubleeboy

    Doubleeboy Active User Active Member

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    Iwill buy your C16J tubes if they are good. You need 10 hp motor if you take out back gear, 7.5 if you keep it. I would not let anyone who has not done a EE conversion anywhere near my machine. Your mills likely were not DC servo controlled machines when your buddy converted them to VFD. Unless he is a wizard at all things 10ee I would steer clear. Jump over to PM and study for a while all the conversion threads and then make your decision.
     
  3. Silverbullet

    Silverbullet Active Member Active Member

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    I think I saw a YouTube on a repair on a 10ee , it turned out to be some cheap part , might have been Adams buddy or another guy but ask them if you find there video. Worth a shot , Keith Rucker just picked up one not working saved from the scrap hoards. Outside screwball has a 10ee to he got not long ago .
     
  4. MattM

    MattM United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Right on that, one was a Bridgeport the other a Kent.

    I can get a NIB 10hp motor for $250.00 tomorrow.

    What I'm having difficulty understanding is: we have a machine here that is mechanical and we have a power source that is electrical, two separate entities. Why does the machine care what the power source is be it electric, steam, gasoline, diesel, water wheel, or...? Seems to me you put an engine to the belt and away we go.

    Could you recommend someone who has done the conversion to do the conversion or tell me how to do it?
     
  5. Doubleeboy

    Doubleeboy Active User Active Member

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    I respectfully suggest you do some studying on the nature of the machine you have and why it is considered one of the all time greats. There is a reason Monarch choose to go DC for decades. Check on PM monarch board for the guys who have done the change over to VFD, its not a simple project, I can not stress enough you need to study up what has been done by others. If you think all power sources are same you have lots of learning to do.
     
  6. Karl_T

    Karl_T United States Active User Active Member

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    The joke is you have to be a EE (electrical engineer) to maintain an old 10EE.

    I've owned and operated my 10EE for 20 years. Converted it to VFD and three phase 18 years ago. Ive been EXTREMELY HAPPY with the conversion.

    Yep, go with the 10 hp 3 phase so you can toss the back gear. This makes it a straight forward easy swap out. (I kept the back gear and went with a 5hp because big VFDs were EXPENSIVE 18 years ago)

    Install a rheostat behind the old speed control handle. Now it can still be used to control speed. Put the forward/stop/reverse levers to the VFD inputs. Now from the outside you can not even tell its not an original machine.

    Ask if you got questions. I've installed a great many VFD conversions on all sorts of equipment.
     
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  7. tq60

    tq60 United States Active Member Active Member

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    A friend up the road removed old motor and modified it to be connection to a new 3 phase with vfd.

    Still has back gear and other things and it is somewhat clean and works.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk
     
  8. MattM

    MattM United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I'm not an EE but I did have some fraternity brothers in college who were. Unfortunately their brilliance did not wear off on me. I'm just an amateur, amateur hobby machinist who has the very good fortune to own a Monarch 10EE. I don't need Lawrence Livermore power and accuracy to do what I try to do.

    I'm going to talk to the factory tomorrow and see what they recommend. (They did tell me some time ago that they could completely refurbish my machine with the latest drive, all new wear parts, scrape the ways, etc. for $23,000.00 not including freight.) If I were in a production environment making parts for ICBM's that might make sense.
     
  9. Ulma Doctor

    Ulma Doctor Infinitely Curious Active Member

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    i would not hesitate to yank out the old system and retrofit a new (edit) 7.5 hp, 3 phase motor and VFD to the works. :drool:
    but, i may not be the voice of reason.
    i get paid to do similar retrofit work on packaging and processing machinery :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  10. mksj

    mksj Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    The current problem could be something very simple like a relay, interlock, blown diode or even a fuse. The wiring diagram gives voltages at different points, but one needs to take special care with probing since the voltages are stepped up (~600V) for the tubes. You would need a 1000V rated voltmeter and probes, very dangerous. My amplifiers run at around 1100V DC, very scary stuff. Hopefully the company can give you some basic tests to check the lower volt systems. The DC motor system was a marvel of its time and even today delivers unprecedented power over a very wide operating range. You might check other forums if there is anybody in your area that can give you a hand problem solving your machine.

    On the VFD end, there are many postings on the conversions, most are happy with the final result but it is not just a simple matter of replacing the motor and connecting a few wires. The other major cost is still the VFD and having the power source to run it. If running single phase in on a 10Hp motor would require a 20Hp 3 phase VFD, the wiring would need to be able to handle a 20Hp. An alternative would be to run a 5Hp motor with a 7.5 or 10Hp 3 phase VFD with the back gear (or a 7.5Hp motor), there are also a couple of single phase 5Hp VFDs sold. But using a 10Hp motor would probably be 2-3X the cost. If you use an inverter motor, it will give you a much wider operating RPM range (up to 6000 RPM and flat torque down to 0 RPM) vs standard motors. Marathon makes a series of inverter motors called the BlackMax and BlueMax, Baldor has the IDNM which I use on my lathe. They often come up at auction for a fraction of their list price (see links). Be aware of the shaft size if using the back gear, from other postings seems like some are keyed or splined 1.25". On the VFD control system, I often install a simple 3 relay system that prevents startup unless in the stop position, interlocks are all active, etc. I can send you a diagram if interested.
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Baldor-Reliancer-Motor-184TC-5HP-230-460V-1760RPM-3PH-IDNM3665T/182487935288
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/7-5-HP-213T...-RPM-3-ph-TENV-Baldor-IDNM3770T-/122523863098

    Marathon BlueMax 10Hp for direct drive
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/10HP-1800RP...8BR-NSNB-10-HP-ELECTRIC-MOTOR-1-/122566943568
    Could use something like a Hitachi VFD - WJ200-150LF

    http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/monarch-lathes/vfd-conversion-99166/
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
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  11. Silverbullet

    Silverbullet Active Member Active Member

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    Ck Robby Nowell on YouTube, he has the same type with the tubes, he had problems too. But he shows ALOT of what he found wrong , broken wire , contact points stuck and arkin not locking just cleaning fixed lots of the reason . Very clear videos and you can see it all.
     
  12. Doubleeboy

    Doubleeboy Active User Active Member

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    Everytime my EE has gone down, I have looked for all the catastrophic issues, the ones that signal death or a major headache. Every time the problem has been fixed by cleaning the contact points or finding cracked wire in motor, or a stuck switch. None of these problems took $10 to fix. None of these fixes required me to get rid of the WiaD set up. I still have 8 rpm to 3000 rpm with enough torque at 8 rpm to pick any 10 guys reading this and fling em across the room.

    I can not speak for Monarch but I would be dumbfounded if they would do a regrind, refit and replace and tune drive for the price Matt mentions. My guess is the out the door price would be closer to double that. If you really don't need bottom end torque then going the 10 hp route with no back gear case works fine. Given that Matt has a 75 machine, relatively easy to trouble shoot, its seems prudent to spend a bit of time researching the obvious gremlins. There are only a few hundred at most pertinent posts on PM regarding that era machine, if it was me I would start reading and then rereading. Lots of guys have marched down this road before. I can not speak to Karls machine, don't have any first hand experience, but I have checked out numerous conversions, some of the very expensive Fanuc controller machines. Bottom line for me was they all stunk, in one smelly way or another, no bottom end, poor speed regulation under load, huge cabinet slung off machine, no ability to turn below several hundred RPM with any kind of control. Made me want a MG or WiaD machine. I did not care for the noise of MG machines so I found a half decent WiaD machine, only slight cobbling evident by prevous shop maintenance guys.

    I know there was at least one maybe more very detailed chronicling of a conversion over on PM, I believe it was low HP, kept the back gear, beautiful work, owner was happy, worth some time checking out in my view.

    Matt if you decide to chuck it all, I will buy your C16J/ 5665 tubes from you if you care to part with em.
     
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  13. MattM

    MattM United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Read Robby Nowell and tried some of his tricks. No help.

    Seems the consensus here is to go the 10hp replacement route. I'm not yet convinced and continue to hope Monarch will say, "Just press this button and everything will be OK".
     
  14. mksj

    mksj Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    You are looking at easily 1.5-2K to do a replacement VFD system, so I would go through a systematic checklist to see what has failed and try to stay with the original DC motor system. If you look at most VFD lathes they use a 2 speed headstock gearbox to achieve a speed range of around 50-2500 RPM. With a 10 Hp single speed, you are pushing the low end and would have less than 1 Hp to the spindle at low RPM. If there is a way to use the 2 speeds with either a 5Hp or 7.5Hp 3 phase motor, that would be more ideal. Just having read about 10EE conversions, the stock DC system is worth keeping unless it is a major failure.
     
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  15. Doubleeboy

    Doubleeboy Active User Active Member

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    Maybe things have changed in last 15 years since I last talked to Monarch, but then they did not support tube machines other than selling what parts they had on hand. In other words, they did not work on them, only replaced the system with solid state drive. I don' t think Monarch is going to have the answer, the answer is going to lie in systematic trouble shooting on sight. I don't spend much time (any) on the Monarch board at PM, my machine works, but if I was in Matt's shoes I would read over and over every post starting at post one, book mark everyone related to Modular machines and start ruling out the obvious stuff. The easiest place to start is which tubes light up? Are all the fuses in your main disconnect good, start at the beginning and go from there. It could easily be something as small as corrosion on a disconnect fuse, or snot in the contactors, drag a piece of paper thru those contactors every year or so. There are so many places to look do it systematically from the beginning. Get the schematic and study it till it all makes sense. If the machine worked the other day and doesn't now and you did not see smoke or smell burning its likely something little and maybe intermittent.
     
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  16. Hal H

    Hal H United States Active Member Active Member

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    Monarch was very helpful when I needed help on my 1972 modular machine. They answered questions and tested tubes and speed pots for me.
    Ask for Scott, he's the guy that travels around the country repairing Monarchs. Tim is Monarch's tec. guy.

    There is a Ton of info over on the PM board.

    Hal
     
  17. MattM

    MattM United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Talked to Tim at Monarch today. He ran me through some simple tests with my multi-meter. Nothing wrong. Then he said, "try tuning up the speed dial". I did and Bingo everything worked. I must have inadvertently turned the speed to zero. Talk about a simple solution.

    I qualify as the Dumbsh.t of the year for not thinking of that.

    Now, I learned a lot from this debacle. First let me say the tube was bad. Then let me say the people at Monarch are the greatest. Thank you Tim and Steve. Essentially these machines are mechanically the same as those shipped 80 years ago. However the drive system today is vastly different. Monarch has a limited supply of electrical/electronic parts but once they are gone that's it. Tim suggested that I prepare for the day that my old electronics give up the ghost or get too expensive to resusicate. The machine will be mechanically good probably forever. He said they were shipping one today that is pretty much mechanically the same as the ones shipped 50 years ago. List price? 120k. I'm going to stockpile parts to convert my machine to 3phase VFD. In fact I'm thinking about doing it before I have to. That way I may be able to sell tubes and other parts to partially offset the conversion costs.

    From reading this thread and others on HM and PM I have come to the conclusion that the consensus is that the way to go is 3phase VFD and there is nothing to fear. Many have successfully done it . Why shouldn't I?

    I gratefully thank all here who shared their wisdom.
     
  18. mksj

    mksj Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    I am glad it worked out for you and saved you a lot of $$ in not having to invest in a complete new system. Although I have built/installed dozens of VFD control systems and probably helped 2-3X more with their conversions, I am still a proponent of trying to stay with the 10EE drive system you have for the immediate (10-20 years) future. A VFD drive will not give the same low speed performance as the machine's DC drive. The basic 10EE control/drive system is very basic (from a component stand point) and if you factor that the tubes can/have lasted for decades, pretty much everything else in the control system is replaceable at a nominal cost. That is why the tubes for this lathe command such a high price, they have not been made in probably 50+ years. These tubes do come up on eBay and some of the different machinist forums so it may be something to consider having a back up tube. The VFD technology is constantly changing and if a VFD is not used on a regular bases, the capacitors can deteriorate with lack of us, one reason why companies that keep backup supplies either rotate them into to use or have specific procedures to power them up on a regular basis. If you do continue with the stock drive, do not turn the machine on/off frequently during the day, tubes will not last as long with frequent on off thermal cycling, so leave the machine on during your work session, turn it off when you are done for the day.

    This previous post is worth reviewing: http://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/monarch-10ee.49216/
     
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  19. Karl_T

    Karl_T United States Active User Active Member

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    Good to know Monarch still has great service.

    Wise decision. You are going to want a 15hp vfd to power a 10hp motor if you are using 220 single phase input. eBay is your friend here, should find a deal if you are patient. I just seen Dealers Electric has them for $800.

    Scrounge the local used jockeys for a three phase motor, should get that for $100 or even better.
     
  20. MattM

    MattM United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Thanks for the tip about leaving the machine on. I do tend to turn it on and off frequently because the blower is annoying.
     
  21. Hal H

    Hal H United States Active Member Active Member

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    Matt

    I'm glad you got your EE up and running.

    I talked to Scott @ Monarch and he said they use 7 1/2 hp with VFD to upgrade machines.
    That combo gives great power at all rpm ranges .
    I think they also use the 2 speed gearbox but I'm not 100% on that.

    Hal
     
  22. MattM

    MattM United States Active User H-M Supporter-Premium

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    Is that a 3phase motor?

    There is a 3phase 10hp NIB Baldor on my local CL for $250.00. I'm thinking on buying it and putting it in inventory against the inevitable day my 10EE electronics throw big time craps.

    I have a friend who can install the VFD.

    Right now my machine is purring along like The Wife's 60 year old Singer. "If it ain't broke don't fix it".
     
  23. Hal H

    Hal H United States Active Member Active Member

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    I would think it is a 3 phase, Give Scott @ Monarch and ask him what they use for power on their latest 10EE's. He is very helpful.
    You might do some checking on the size of that 10 HP to make sure it will fit. I think some people use a 7 1/2 HP( Black Max ?) and it's a tight fit.
    I think some guys use a 10HP without a gear box, and a 7 1/2 HP with the later style heavy duty gear box.
    Do a search on the PM forum.

    Hal
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
  24. old_dave

    old_dave United States Active User Active Member

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    Yes it's a three phase motor (the speed of single phase motors can't be varied with a VFD). A 7 1/2 HP three phase motor with a 1:5 reduction gear box is what Monarch Lathes uses in a new 10EE. See: http://www.monarchlathe.com/sites/default/files/Monarch-EE-Series.pdf It's also what they use in their "remanufacturing" of 10EE's.
    David
     

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